Hello from ITTF President

[Neptune]

Mr. Sharara,

sorry, but I wonder why you didn't answer my post. Instead of this you are applauding a user (TSC) who looks down at frictionless long pimples players and call them "low level amateurs" and also call other people here "Material-Nazis", which is more than disgraceful. That shows no good light on you and people might think, that you are also a big proponent or even one of the initiators of the ban, because you also hate frictionless long pimple players.

Best regards

Neptune

[Tony_Iommi]

Neptune,

I think your question was already sufficiently answered, frankly. However, I am sure Adham will notice your latest posting and if time allows, he will respond as soon as he gets a chance.

If he doesn't get to stop by over the weekend or early next week, I will reach out to him ans ask him whether he could specifically address you question. Okay?

[mago]

Hello, Mr. President,

Zitat von adham

it was to "improve" the game and to disallow the post-treatment of rubbers which is a form of cheating.

Improve the game ? You think, maybe, that "old" players, 40, 50, 60 years...must "improve" the game ? This players work, have a family and they cannot sure have a "profi" training...and "improve" a stroke...two hours hobby training in the week...if you think, it is impossible...result will be, that a lot of "old" players will have no more fun "keine Lust" to play...you don't think this.........?

Post-treatment...with ttmaster was no-necessary a home-treatment...now (you can be sure) this will have a "new age".

This is a question of setting standards and setting criteria that the majority of the members of the ITTF (national associations) believe it os in favour of the sport. It is your right to believe the opposite of course. Time will tell who is right. The delegates at the ITTf are not stupid,

Yes, i know the....ideas against this game of the members....

But we must give enough time to see the effects. We had mush stronger opposition to the 40mm ball and the 11 points games, but today there is general agreement that these were good changes.

This is not the same...in the future....eheh... a "general agreement"...nobody (the users) will say...this is a good change.........

But, you are right that the friction rule has caused a lot of problems to tyhe players at the lower levels in clubs and leagues, while it had no effect on the top players. I am very soory about that. But I firmly believe that players should rely on their own skills and hone those skills to be better players and use equipment only as a question of comfort and as a matter of fitting their style of play, rather than using equipment (and altering) to gain advantage. This is my personal belief.

Table tennis isn't tennis...the materials are in the DNA of TT....or ?

And last...but not least, Mr. President...you will improve the game, ok. We believe..........

But The game was nice when Jonyer, Klampar etc, played.....a lot of top spins and blocks on the table...this was super for the "show"...or ?
But after we had the "age" of glue.........terrible for our game...two spins and Schluss...ehh
No good for the health...also...............
But we had 25 years of glue....why, mr President ?
You wont improve the game with 42 Ball, set 11.......all the possible and impossible ideas...but NOT erase the first responsable...the glue. 25 years....why mr. President ?

[mago]

From: http://lucioping.altervista.org/Engl...s_cheating.htm

Maybe interesting...............obviously for frictionless LP too...........


ARE LONG PIPS CHEATING ?


Long pips have always been controversial rubbers. This are some of the points made by players that complain on long pips, and my comments on each point:

They allow EASY control of spiny balls:
True, but note that EASY control is not BETTER control. Doing high quality shots is much more difficult than with inverted. Inverted players have a wide range of rubbers from where to choose, and they can select one among them that gives all the control they need too. Choosing a rubber that makes you control the ball is not cheating. It is a good idea.

They are hard to play against if you don't know HOW they work:
True, but this is YOUR fault only. Imagine how would you complain on inverted if it didn't exist, and you (a hardbat player, which never faced anything other than hardbat) faced a new player from another planet using heavy reglued Mark V rubbers with MAX sponge. If you were facing this player once per year, you would NEVER learn to play against inverted, since you need much more practice to get used to it. If you were AVOIDING this player all the time, the few (unavoidable) times you played against him, your performance would be even poor. That's what happen with long pips.

There's great variation on how long pips play, so LEARNING to play against them is not easy:
True. Long pips have a lot of parameters (such as pip's height, width, hardness, density ...) which can be adjusted to get specific (and very distinct) performances to suit different styles. Playing against JOOLA Badman (a hitting rubber) has NOTHING to do with playing against Double Happiness C7 (a chopping rubber). Also, some long pips are spiny while other are dead, some are deceptive while some are not, some can do spin reversal while some eat all spin, and all this types can be combined among them. But what gives more problems to players is that they return spin depending on the incoming ball's spin AND the stroke the long pips player plays. Note that inverted can somehow have great variation too, but when it comes close to some extreme behavior, they call it ANTISPIN.

Lots of players use long pips to COVER some weakness:
True. On the other side, lots of players serve & go for 3rd ball kill with ultra-fast equipment that they can't really control. In the first case, it's called CHEATING, and in the late case, it's called EVOLUTION OF THE GAME, but both groups choose equipment with the same purpose: to boost its performance. Both groups are likely to have problems to improve his game. Long pips suit very few players, same as very fast equipment. Those are not the wisest options, but neither can't be called cheating.

There are some truly DECEPTIVE rubbers:
True. There are some rubbers that have its parameters adjusted so tricky and extremely that can RANDOMIZE the spin they impart on the ball. This rubbers allow to push a no spin ball and get ANY spin (backspin, topspin, sidespin, even corkscrew). Every push comes different. It's a nightmare when they hit with this rubbers and you are at the other side. BUT this is not the purpose of this rubbers: a (highly) skilled played can play those deceptive long pips in a completely predictable manner. They choose this equipment since it has incredible capabilities (i. e.: instead of reversing spin, they can change spin's direction at his will). There are few legal and deceptive rubbers since the aspect ratio rule.

Long pips players take PROFIT of opponents' inability to play against long pips ON PURPOSE:
True. Lots of players use long pips as it's stated in (1), and take profit of (2), (3), (4) and (5) to boost their performance, specially at the lower levels, and SOME do this with the intention of take profit of opponent's weakness against long pips. This is cheating at the same level as doing a certain serve that you know your opponent is weak against (the common accepted 'way to go' by ALL the players). Some players complain that the difference is that serves have to be learned, and long pips just can be purchased. Well using long pips without leaving exposed his inherent weaknesses is very difficult to learn (and it is a must to play a SUCCESSFUL long pips game).

You have to THINK when facing long pips players:
Not true.You are not FORCED to think. You can play chess without thinking too. You can play your mindless looping style as usual and still win, but that will be unlikely if your opponent forces you to rally. Lots of players complain 'I don't like to think when I'm playing': That's fine, but they are playing with one important weapon less than a thinking player, and that could make the difference.

Inverted can be used to play successful chopping TOO:
True. But long pips are a MUCH better option since they provide better variation, much heavy backspin, and better handling and ball control to play defense. You can loop with 0.5 mm sponge too if you want (no, wait, that would be cheating because it's unusual).

Real ATHLETES don't play long pips / defense:
Not true. Some real athletes DO play long pips / defense. Look at the world ranking and you will see some (yes, there are few) real athletes playing long pips /defense.

Inverted is SUPERIOR to long pips:
True. That's just accurate. This has NOTHING to do with the fact that long pips are or are not cheating.

Returning the ball without taking CHANCES is very easy with long pips:
Not true. Returning the ball can be easy, but it is EXTREMELY difficult doing it in such a manner that your opponent can't attack (don't letting your opponent attack (or at least don't letting him to attack hard) is the ONLY way of play without taking chances). At top level, choppers play the riskiest possible game.

Long pips players do NOTHING but wait for opponent's error:
Not true. They have AT LEAST to return ALL the shots. Winning the point by opponent's error (whatever you think it means) is 100% legal, thus is no cheating.

Defensive styles at lower levels are much more EFFECTIVE:
True. At lower levels there are lots of unforced errors, so just keeping the ball in play, even poorly, and playing for safety will make you a tough opponent. This has nothing to do with cheating.

There are little or no chopper TOP players:
True. This is because they are at a HUGE disadvantage when facing loopers due to 40mm balls, glues, low aspect ratios, max sponges, carbon blades, etc... Still, there are a few players that choose this style and can be competitive. Imagine taking part in an F1 race with a 'street' sports car... and winning: You wouldn't be called cheater: you would be called HERO.

Boris

Copyright © 2001 The Tactical Table Tennis Website

[adham]

Zitat von Neptune

Mr. Sharara,

sorry, but I wonder why you didn't answer my post. Instead of this you are applauding a user (TSC) who looks down at frictionless long pimples players and call them "low level amateurs" and also call other people here "Material-Nazis", which is more than disgraceful. That shows no good light on you and people might think, that you are also a big proponent or even one of the initiators of the ban, because you also hate frictionless long pimple players.

Best regards

Neptune

Hi Neptune, I felt that the answer from another member was sufficient, and my answer to him/her elaborated further. But I will answer you directly, although it will sound repetitive. Here goes:

Perhaps the ITTF made a big mistake as you say, but only time will tell. Have we frustrated too many users of low-friction rubbers? Or have we "un-frustrated" many players that did not like low-friction rubber? In any case, in a year or tow we will know what the TT landscape is like. But there is no "ban" on "long pimples frictionless" rubber. What was established is a minimum friction level for which the ITTF is ready to give the authorization to the manufacturer to use the ITTF logo on the equipment. This decision is not made by me. It is made by the appropriate meeting within the ITTF and was passed with a big majority. It would seem that the national associations members of the ITTF favoured the establishment of a minimum standard. This is the role of an international federation to set the rules and to establish standards. Some would prefer anarchy and anything goes, Ok, I respect their views. Others prefer extreme regulations and strict set criteria, also OK, I respect theior views. But I find the ITTF to be somewhere in the middle. We have some rules, we have some new rules, but in fact if you look at the variety of equipment allowed in TT compared to tennis, BAdminto and Squash, there is abolutely no comparison. The other 3 racket sports are much more regulated and limited. We have pimples in, pimples out, with sponge, without sponge, long pips, short pips, thick pips, thin pips, hard rubber, soft rubber, hard sponge, soft sponge, 1mm, 1.5mm, 2mm, 2,2mm, 2.5mm, red, black, hard pimples, bending pimples, high friction, low friction, etc., etc., Do you blame the ITTF for trying to set some standards and for not allowing post-************** treatment?

Again, I repeat, there is no ban, there is a "standard". Just like the thickness. 4mm is the rule. Why not 10mm, or 15mm, or no limit? Because we need to standardize equipment within an acceptable range and avoid chaos.

If players did not resort to treating their rubbers to gain advantage, if players used the legal equipment only, we would not have this problem. Unfortunately the ITTF reacted too late in my opinion, after manufacturers were already producing ready made rubbers that had the post-treatment effect. So when the low friction standard was set, their rubbers did not receive authorization. It's unfortunate for these manufacturers and it's unfortunate for the generation of players that relied on this equipment.Just like it was unfortunate for some generations before when sand-paper bats were made illegal, or when the thick sponge became illegal, or when the finger spin was no longer allowed (Americans were the best in the world then: Miles, Pagliaro, Schiff, Klein, Shahian, Neuberger, etc.). That generation went down fast without the finger spin, but the sport was better for it (finger spin service was unpredictable to return).

You say" many players will stop playing table tennis, I disagree. You say the sport will end, I strongly disagree. We will have lows, we will have highs, we will have some players stopping, but the real lovers of TT will keep on playing and more important, I hope that many new players take-up the game and find it easy to learn and get hooked to the sound of the ball, to the ability of imparting spin, to learn how to counter spin skillfully, and to feel the joy of a great smash, or a great defensive shot far from the table, and to sweat while getting excellent exercise. The sport will die? No way!

Adham

[adham]

Zitat von Neptune

Mr. Sharara,

sorry, but I wonder why you didn't answer my post. Instead of this you are applauding a user (TSC) who looks down at frictionless long pimples players and call them "low level amateurs" and also call other people here "Material-Nazis", which is more than disgraceful. That shows no good light on you and people might think, that you are also a big proponent or even one of the initiators of the ban, because you also hate frictionless long pimple players.

Best regards

Neptune

I have answered now. But somehow it looks like I posted the answer twice, I guess better than not at all. I am still new to this Forum, I will learn how to use it better in time.

Adham

[adham]

Zitat von mago

From: http://lucioping.altervista.org/Engl...s_cheating.htm

Maybe interesting...............obviously for frictionless LP too...........


ARE LONG PIPS CHEATING ?

You are right, using long pimples is NOT cheating. Also using short pimples is NOT cheating. Cheating is when you use something that is against the rules and that is not allowed, or if you alter your equipment after it has been approved or authorized. So to use a racket covering that is more than 4mm and you know it, that is cheating. To use a rubber that has a friction below the allowed minimum and you know it, that is cheating. To use glue that has VOCs and you know it, that is cheating. To add anything to your racket covering such as boosters, tuners, orange juice or butter, and you know that it is not allowed, that is cheating. Basically, if you knowingly do something that is against the rules in order to gain advantage, that is cheating.

Adham

[mago]

Zitat von adham

You are right, using long pimples is NOT cheating. Also using short pimples is NOT cheating. Cheating is when you use something that is against the rules and that is not allowed, or if you alter your equipment after it has been approved or authorized. So to use a racket covering that is more than 4mm and you know it, that is cheating. To use a rubber that has a friction below the allowed minimum and you know it, that is cheating. To use glue that has VOCs and you know it, that is cheating. To add anything to your racket covering such as boosters, tuners, orange juice or butter, and you know that it is not allowed, that is cheating. Basically, if you knowingly do something that is against the rules in order to gain advantage, that is cheating.

Adham

Thanks, mr. Sharara, but i don't want an answer for this article....it was of "BORIS" only for ....reading...(i also think like you...to make frictionless if this isn'allowed is cheating...) but why isn't allowed ? This is was the "sense" of this article...you understand what i mean...i think....or ?

Important was for me (and for others) an answer for my post bevor..........old players must learn backhand.......etc...thank if you want answer, mr President.

I repeat all, so you have clear here....another time thank mr. Sharara:


- - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -


Adham

it was to "improve" the game and to disallow the post-treatment of rubbers which is a form of cheating.

Improve the game ? You think, maybe, that "old" players, 40, 50, 60 years...must "improve" the game ? This players work, have a family and they cannot sure have a "profi" training...and "improve" a stroke...two hours hobby training in the week...if you think, it is impossible...result will be, that a lot of "old" players will have no more fun "keine Lust" to play...you don't think this.........?

Post-treatment...with ttmaster was no-necessary a home-treatment...now (you can be sure) this will have a "new age".


Adham:
This is a question of setting standards and setting criteria that the majority of the members of the ITTF (national associations) believe it os in favour of the sport. It is your right to believe the opposite of course. Time will tell who is right. The delegates at the ITTf are not stupid,

Yes, i know the....ideas against this game of the members....

Adham:
But we must give enough time to see the effects. We had mush stronger opposition to the 40mm ball and the 11 points games, but today there is general agreement that these were good changes.

This is not the same...in the future....eheh... a "general agreement"...nobody (the users) will say...this is a good change.........

Adham:
But, you are right that the friction rule has caused a lot of problems to tyhe players at the lower levels in clubs and leagues, while it had no effect on the top players. I am very soory about that. But I firmly believe that players should rely on their own skills and hone those skills to be better players and use equipment only as a question of comfort and as a matter of fitting their style of play, rather than using equipment (and altering) to gain advantage. This is my personal belief.

Table tennis isn't tennis...the materials (without altering) are in the DNA of TT....or ?

And last...but not least, Mr. President...you will improve the game, ok. We believe..........

But The game was nice when Jonyer, Klampar etc, played.....a lot of top spins and blocks on the table...this was super for the "show"...or ?
But after we had the "age" of glue.........terrible for our game...two spins and Schluss...ehh
No good for the health...also...............
But we had 25 years of glue....why, mr President ?
You "improved" the game with 40 Ball, set 11.......all the possible and impossible ideas...but NOT erase the first responsable...the glue. 25 years....why mr. President ?

[Neptune]

Hello Mr. Sharara,

thanks a lot for your answer.

In 1-2 years we will still have the same situation, if you don't take back the ban, because there will be no adequate alternative for the players, which were using frictionless long pimples before. So a lot of them will still use their old rubbers or modify new ones.
In the past years since frictionless long pimples were used I have seen maybe 15-20 players (out of hundreds) that didn't like to play against that material. But this situation changed a lot. First they didn't know how to play against, because it was new, but later (when thinking twice how table tennis works) they found out, how good they can play against it. And after a lot of players around in our area were playing frictionless long pimples there is no more anger about using it, because most of the players know how to play against it. And if someone does it good you have no chance at all, because frictionless long pimples are no wonder-rubbers. Nowadays in our area everybody is used to play against this material and there was no more problem during the matches. So why the hell did the ITTF ban this material. You say it's no ban, but the standart you set is the same. With your new standart you banned the frictionless long pimples!!!
Nobody in my team, in my club, in our echelon (?), in our area ..... understands why we are not aloud to use our old material no more.
And yes, I learned to play table tennis (35 years ago) on backhand and forehand. Topspin, Chop, Block, Defence ..... in a good club and we had a very strong team, that trained 4 times a week. And yes, I played inward pimpled rubbers like Sriver or Tackiness the first ten years. But there came a time, rubbers and woods got faster and faster and young people trained more "mean" services, so I tried short pimples on backhand, which worked very good. 3 years later I started with frictionless long pimples. I needed 2-3 years to play good with that kind of material. Yes, it's no wonder-material that plays by itsself. A lot of players are used to play legal frictionless long pimples for many years now. So why should we not play this material no more? There is absolutly no reason!!!
What the ITTF did against the frictionless long pimples players in the last years was already enough (if not too much) of astriction. First there was the new aspect ratio and next was the 40mm ball, which was and still is a very big handicap for frictionless long pimples players. I don't know, whether you really know that.

I have never written any letter to the ITTF or the DTTB about players using Anti spin (that I don't like to play against since the beginning of my table tennis "carreer"). I try the best - sometimes I win and sometimes I loose.
I never wrote any letter to officials about players using too fast woods and/or rubbers. I never did about short pimples, gluing, "mean" service..... Table tennis was good a couple years ago, when everybody could decide, what's the best material for him/her. But now the ITTF is listening to the wrong persons, and bans frictionless pimples.
If the ITTF thinks using frictionless long pimples rubbers is cheating you are on the wrong way. This material was legal for so many years, it doesn't play by itsself, it's not dangerous for the health of players, it's no physical doping (like swallowing pills to have more air/condition, power), it's part of our sport.So why ban it with that new standard. The ITTF hurt a lot of players just because some players don't like to play against this kind of material. What a mistake!!! What comes next??? Players that are crying again, because they cannot play against something else??? Officials crying, because they don't like to see: big woods, antis, long pimples, short pimples, thin rubbers, used rubbers, Chinese players (because they always win) ..... or even players that are to old and must be eliminated????

Most of us are hobby players. We love our sport and play table tennis for a very long time. But if the ITTF is trying to eliminate those "material players" out of the base, you are going the wrong way. Very often those "material players" are the ones who keep people in our clubs, do a lot of official work for them, drive children to matches, because the parents nowadays are not interested in sport or don't have no time (as they mostly say). And very often those "material-players" even do the youth work/training, because they had a very good and fundamental training in younger days. When I see players (like in our last match) that can only make a good and "mean" service and they want to kill the next ball, I wonder who trains them. Those two players (around 25-30 years old) could not even play one correct chop. Horrible. When playing a chop, it seemed like they never played table tennis before. One of them won one game, that's it. To many faults when chopping the ball once. But they were "profis" on a long forehand ball. Kawumm!!! Curious!!! If the ITTF thinks that those kind of players are the best for our sport and the frictionless long pimples player should better stay at home, because you think they cannot play table tennis, they never had a good fundamental training, they disturb the sport or whatever.... you must tell us directly and not with new rules against us.


Sorry again for my bad English. I tried my best and I hope you understand everything right.

Best regards

Neptune

[hanifah1]

Zitat von Neptune

Neptune

You are soooooo right, Neptune


I know 15 former "frictionless pimples players". All are extremly frustrated.
6 still stopped playing tabletennis (no time,injured... you know the real reason), 4 made frictionless pimples by there own and 5 are testing,testing and testing.

I will see what the next few month are happening, maybe that big Mistake will change and the frictionless ban will be changed.

I am one of the hunderts (thousends ?) of frustrated tabletennis players. I think I have to stop my tabeltenniscareer after 26 years.

Very sad that all...........